So, this conversation grew into a
thing. You know, one of those
things. But unlike most of them, it didn't go nuclear, no anger directed at anyone - except for some very mild anger from myself at some well-perceived condescension - but seriously, it was quite possibly the most calm and rational religious debate I've ever had. And in fairness, I will include the counter arguments. Well, there's a little mirth mixed in with the fairness, but no one will be able to say I wasn't. Fair, that is. Unless by "fair" you mean that we were all equally intelligent and educated. To that I would say, ask them....behind a shitty, toothy smile. Oh, and please read through to the end. Or skip to the end. That's the best part.
Thus, my original post:
Okay, just so I have this straight. I can rape who I want, kill who I want, rob who I want (I don't want any of these things, for the record), and I'm forgiven and justified just so long as I ask Jesus to forgive me, right? And after I ask for forgiveness, I can go back out, do the same thing over again, and I'm forgiven once again, correct? So...pretty much anything goes? I come to you and kill your daughter. I'm forgiven - because I'm a Christian - and you have to forgive me as well? Because YOU'RE a Christian?
It's a flawed system we're working with here, people. So far as I can see at least. Regardless of what I do to you, I'm forgiven. That isn't holy. And it certainly isn't justice. It's called murder, rape and robbery. And it isn't just a sin, it is against conventional law. And those laws weren't based on a religious text. They are based in simple human interaction. Ego. Era. In Bible times, it was perfectly acceptable for a man - a MAN ONLY - to have more than one wife. Why is that, though? Why was it cool for a dude to have two wives, but not so much for a wife to have two husbands? It still blows my mind that the Vatican still tries to justify the Old Testament.
You literally CANNOT be a Christian and believe in ANY of the teachings or prophecies put forth by the Old Testament. The very concept disallows, delegitimizes everything put forth as LAW from the Old Testament.
That was me. Here are some of the responses. And please believe me, these are the most intelligent ones.
"Bob M. - Ok dude,cold truth,,,,you have never been weak,,,,this seems a matter of self opinion ,,, I've always held your personal strength and wisdom in the highest regard,,,,may I suggest you view yourself in the same manor?"
Hat Thomas - I'm sick of it, Bob. The constant appeals of, "You should come to my church." Like that's going to show me the way. You know how many churches I've been to? Yeah, me neither. I lost count. Hundreds, likely. Because I *wanted* to believe in something. Thing is, I just got sick of that ONE thing they kept wanting me to believe in. Turned out, that Eastern desert religion didn't really fit my way of thinking. You guys know that Christianity - the religion that dominates Western culture and that 70% of Americans subscribe to - is an ARAB religion, right? Those guys were ARABS. The same people our government seeks to eradicate worldwide? The same people most right wing, Christian conservatives wish would simply go away? Their very morality is made up of an ARAB religion. Sorry, but if I'm going to subscribe to a religion, I'd prefer it be one my own ancestors came up with. Just saying. I don't. Don't get me wrong. But if I were to commit my life to some kind of faith, it damn sure wouldn't be one from a region where women are doormats and the wages of sin is death.
Amanda G. - Death in a spiritual sense. That's what that means. The man should love his wife more than he loves himself because to love his wife IS to love himself. They are one in Christ.
^^ Because that explains everything we just discussed, of course ^^
Hat Thomas - Did you not read any of it prior to the part about women being doormats?
Bob M. - It's about being right with you,,,,god may or may not be part of your life,,,, but you must live,correct ?
Hat Thomas - It's about being honest, and yes, right. I want to live right, morally, And to do so, I CANNOT follow the Arab Bible.
Hat Thomas - I'm not saying it's wrong for everyone - plainly that isn't the case - but it is very decidedly wrong for me.
And here's where I go off:
Hat Thomas - I don't personally commit acts that require forgiveness, Amanda. Like, rarely, if not never. I just don't engage in that kind of behavior anymore. So now it falls upon me to seek out these so-called sins where there are none to be found. But, as Christians, you go DEEP. You make sins out of literally nothing. Impure thoughts? What is the definition of impure (sexual? human thought?) and who defines it ultimately? Not the Bible, that's certain. At least the Catholics have a system by which they gauge such things. Protestants cannot even boast that one simple thing. Who decides which thoughts are bad and which aren't?
For that matter, who decides whether or not thought itself is bad? I think therefore I sin? Such horseshit! Whoever came up with that ideology was either rutted in guilt or trying to control others who were. I have a thought. I have sinned. That makes no fucking sense. You ask me to believe what you believe....when I know for truth what you believe is based in lies, deceit and utterly contrived nonsense. Don't ever ask me to believe what you believe, because I have this handy little pocket tool. It's called *reason*. And it has served me well. Don't ever ask me to believe what you believe again (don't even bring it up in conversation) because I will - without hesitation or remorse - take it apart, bit by ridiculous bit. I have no patience for it anymore.
You know the final answer I get from people now? "Well, I guess the lord will have to show you in his own way." Or some such nonsense. You know why, though? Because faith can never stand against reason. Never. Never has been able to, never will be able to, and until you or someone else can say one, clear, definitive thing worth saying, I stand by reason and reason alone. Faith has done absolutely shit for me, and believe me, I have lived as a person of faith. To no avail, of course. Those who seek comfort in God, Jesus, Allah, more power to you. If it makes you feel better to believe in some imaginary guy living up in the clouds who has nothing but love for you, bully for you. But I have a newsflash for you: What has Santa Claus ever done for you? Name one goddamned thing.
"Before you pray for my soul, consider this. I am not doomed. I am one of the very few who has moved away from religion, but closer to God. I cannot see Him in the pages of the Bible - a book which has no direct bearing on me - and I cannot see Him in the same places you see him....because you are told where to look for Him. I wasn't. And in that light, I was made to see. My mind is clear, open, untroubled by sin and guilt and regret. My path was not easy - indeed, it has been uniquely difficult - but I am at a place where I find your concern for my spiritual well-being just a bit condescending. As if you know something, or are in touch with something I am not. Let me reassure you, that isn't the case. If anything, it is the other way around. I walk free of guilt, of regret, free of fear and recrimination. I stand tall and proud in my uniqueness, my oneness. I live how I have always imagined I should live. I am happy, most of the time, and I fear nothing. Because there is no challenge that I have faced yet which I have not overcome, soundly.
But if it makes you - any of you - feel better to lament for my soul, by all means, go ahead. But please do so on your own time. I am whole. I do not need, nor want, your god's assistance, provided he ever even offered it. Which I highly doubt. I am good. No thanks to him, but in large and grateful thanks to you, my family and friends.
We live in a country dominated wholly by corporate interests, in which almost every legislation enacted by our duly elected corporate cronies is aimed at providing those same corrupt, corporate entities with yet more power, more control over our economy, and thus our lives. They're the same people who lobbied Congress for "Corporate Personhood." Go ahead and look that up. I'll wait. These evil white men are making RECORD PROFITS, people. Easily researched. In fact, I'll do a little of my own to support my claim, although I have been doing so for years. And I say, "evil," because the whole scheme has a sinister quality to it unlike anything I have ever seen or imagined. The control they exercise over the direction of the U.S., and indeed, the world, is so complete that they literally control every facet of our lives. Without them, we cannot cook, see, or stay warm. Without their drugs, we would die. And our Federal Bank is privately owned, which is another subject entirely, but worth at least a footnote here.
